Discussion with someone_else and wintoolkit ramifications

[someone_else]

You can do a All-in-one x86 + x64 ISO with Win Tools, but I think you shouldn't bother. Various reasons:

-It's unlikely it will be small enough to fit in a DVD. I have a Ultimate x86 + x64 ISO (without any additional updates/addons/drivers and without SP1) that is around 4 gigs, for example. Will everything fit in 700 megs? hmmmmmm.....

-DVD are slooow. DVDs are soo old school these days. Any computer that isn't 10+ years old can boot from USB, and any USB memory device (even HDDs) is pretty damn faster than any DVD. On the net you can find plenty of guides and programs to place your Win 7/8 ISOs on a bootable USB drive. The best so far seems to be YUMI since it allows you to multiboot and add tons of other useful tools in your USB drive.

For the older BIOS that refuse to boot from USB, you just need a CD with plopboot.

-I'd rather not make a All-in-one x86 + x64 ISO, since to do that most programs (and I think this one as well) let you decide the "main" WIM and add the other on top of that.

This means you can use the ISO to install both, but does not allow you to use the ISO to troubleshoot/repair the added WIMs.

That is, if you add a x64 WIM on top of a x86 WIM you can install both, but when it's time for fixing something, that's a x86-only disk. (and the same if you do the reverse).

--------

My personal project (that brought me here) is to make two ISO files able to install all flavors (from starter to Ultimate, a fully-updated/addon/driver x86 and a fully-updated/addon/driver x64, then make a multiboot USB with YUMI to fit both on the same drive allowing both to be used for installation and troubleshooting, while being also bundled together with other useful tools like DBAN, Memtest, Offline NT password and registry editor, and a Linux Puppy just in case.

Edited July 30, 2012 by someone_else

[Kelsenellenelvian]

This means you can use the ISO to install both, but does not allow you to use the ISO to troubleshoot/repair the added WIMs.

That is, if you add a x64 WIM on top of a x86 WIM you can install both, but when it's time for fixing something, that's a x86-only disk. (and the same if you do the reverse).

YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG!

Originall from MDL forums and tweaked by me this method is in win7toolit and adds FULL 32 and 64 bit functionality to the iso...

http://www.ryanvm.ne...opic.php?t=8993

As a side note:

WHY are you guys making 9+ versions of 7 full images? What is the use? Besides wasting a metrc sh!tload of time and headaches....

Seriously do you guys ACTUALLY NEED all versions of 7? It is really redundant.

[someone_else]

YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG!

I think you are overreacting a bit. I said I wasn't sure, and this detail isn't stated anywhere in the guides so I had no way to know. I'd like to hear Legolash2o on this too though, no offence.

Anyway, good to know. This program is beyond awesome then. Every other tool I looked at was like I said.

WHY are you guys making 9+ versions of 7 full images? What is the use? Besides wasting a metrc sh!tload of time and headaches....

Seriously do you guys ACTUALLY NEED all versions of 7? It is really redundant.

Something like that is useful for technicians and sysadmins, since with a single USB device (actually a couple dozen if you are into serious businness) you can fix from netbooks to desktops way faster than with a DVD.

But seriously, a program like this is bound to attract people that find fun doing insane things for the sake of saying BWHAHAHAHA I HAVE ALL WIN7 and WIN8 ON THIS USB DRIVE, LIMITLESS POWAAAAAA!!!! :dancing: :dancing:

Seriously Home Basic x86 is really the only viable choice for that machine.

Win 7 is a much different beast than its predecessors.

From my experience, Starter is utter trash, it isn't lighter at all and has plenty of machine-crippling features for the sake of punishing you.

I have not detected any differences in performance between the others.

To make a quick example, all netbooks I had in my hands (stuff with dual-core atom processors) could run Ultimate without any impact on performance.

This machine (the pentium D) runs Ultimate atm and it's faster than it ever was on Xp.

They say it's because they implemented some way to keep all functions ready for launch without gobbling up a ton of resources like it was with Vista and XP.

[Kelsenellenelvian]

Something like that is useful for technicians and sysadmins, since with a single USB device (actually a couple dozen if you are into serious businness)

And such a person would be much better served by learning to do all this themselves. How much have you supported Win toolkit? How much potential money does it save you in man hours and overall productivity? Seriously does taking GIANT shortcuts make you a better technician? Do you really want to loose your job and potentially any future ones by using an app that you cannot support or explain what\how it did its thing? Especially if you\win toolkit make a serious error and people die over it? (Came close to happening with nLite when a hospital tech used it and several PC's failed at a hospital.)

Lego = Once again I urge you to add a no corp or business clause to your app. You need to protect yourself from these people and their follies.

i.e. Light a man a fire and keep him warm for the night.

Light a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life...

I'd like to hear Legolash2o on this too though, no offence.

I helped Lego add this to the toolkit.

WTF Starter? I never said stater.

http://www.sevenforu...7-editions.html

There are some features that are enabled in the higher versions you cannot avoid.

Areo shake, aero peek, dynamic disks, iis web server, offline files.

Please do much more research before spouting off.

I have been in the OS\Modification and imrovemnet buisness for over a decade. I made the first 3rd party addon for win xp (RyanVM was before me.). I really know what I am talking about.

[someone_else]

And such a person would be much better served by learning to do all this themselves.

What kind of reasoning is that? :g: If you need to write a document do you code your own Word-like application or download LibreOffice?

For the same reason no sane guy is going to waste weeks in learning how to do it from scratch, then writing scripts and debugging the damn things in his spare time when there is a program that is so much better than a makeshift bunch of scripts and is done by people that have years of experience in doing this kinds of things.

How much have you supported Wintoolkit?

I have yet to see if it does what I need. Then we can talk of sharing loot.

How much potential money does it save you in man hours and overall productivity?

Smaller companies I usually work for don't have the bandwith needed to run even 5 machines downloading tons of updates at once while doing their jobs as well (as is the case for XP), and they don't allow me to do stuff at night.

The same for people that ask me to fix their own computers, I don't have a murderously fast connection and there are times when I have 5 machines that need a new OS. The faster I do it, the happier they are.

I remember times wehn I lost days on the Internet to find the right drivers for some random piece of hardware that the OS didn't recognize. This isn't fun.

Since I started using a Win XP usb drive installer with integrated updates and drivers, my reputation (and contracts) skyrocketed since I had more time to fix real issues (usually tracking down and fixing faulty hardware) instead of wasting time babysitting OS reinstallations or finding drivers.

Since more and more companies are switching to Win 7 as they phase out dead machines (and all new consumer PCs use one Win 7 or another), I'm looking for a good all-in-one solution like I found for XP.

I need installers for Win 7 Starter, Home and Pro anyway, so why not make an All-In-One?

Next time someone brings me a gaming rig to fix I'm gonna use that to make the ISO. :shifty:

There are some features that are enabled in the higher versions you cannot avoid.

I thought I said I failed to notice any performance hit from such added features, not that there were none.

All Win 7 optimizations I tried didn't result in a worthwile performance boost (some even made the OS more unstable). Switching from Home to Pro to Ultimate did not impact performance in noticeable ways even on netbooks.

Apart from Aero on machines with limited graphics like netbooks, but that's pretty easy to turn off.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Legolash2o

[Kelsenellenelvian]

You're not writing a document you are repairing\reinstalling something that people count on and spend money on. The ONLY way to guarantee you work is to do it your self.

Do you have ANY clue how win toolkit does everything it does and ALL of the ramifications of your choices?

Also when YOU modify and then INSTALL windows on ANY PC but your own you are breaking MS's Eula and opening your customers up to lawsuits and criminal charges.

You seem to me a very lazy, disrespectful person...

hmmm

I remember times wehn I lost days on the Internet to find the right drivers for some random piece of hardware that the OS didn't recognize. This isn't fun.

A hint and a little help next time on that one:

http://www.zhangduo.com/udi.html

http://www.ryanvm.ne...opic.php?t=9769

I do feel SOME of your pain BUT I take alot of pride in my work. (I do easily 10-20 pc's weekly and build from scratch 25% or so of those.)

[Legolash2o]

Firstly, i've taken the liberty to merge both of your double posting and please calm down If you want to know an answer to something ask a specific question. Now lets get to replying

You can do a All-in-one x86 + x64 ISO with Win Tools, but I think you shouldn't bother. Various reasons:

-It's unlikely it will be small enough to fit in a DVD. I have a Ultimate x86 + x64 ISO (without any additional updates/addons/drivers and without SP1) that is around 4 gigs, for example. Will everything fit in 700 megs? hmmmmmm.....

-DVD are slooow. DVDs are soo old school these days. Any computer that isn't 10+ years old can boot from USB, and any USB memory device (even HDDs) is pretty damn faster than any DVD. On the net you can find plenty of guides and programs to place your Win 7/8 ISOs on a bootable USB drive. The best so far seems to be YUMI since it allows you to multiboot and add tons of other useful tools in your USB drive.

For the older BIOS that refuse to boot from USB, you just need a CD with plopboot.

-I'd rather not make a All-in-one x86 + x64 ISO, since to do that most programs (and I think this one as well) let you decide the "main" WIM and add the other on top of that.

This means you can use the ISO to install both, but does not allow you to use the ISO to troubleshoot/repair the added WIMs.

That is, if you add a x64 WIM on top of a x86 WIM you can install both, but when it's time for fixing something, that's a x86-only disk. (and the same if you do the reverse).

--------

My personal project (that brought me here) is to make two ISO files able to install all flavors (from starter to Ultimate, a fully-updated/addon/driver x86 and a fully-updated/addon/driver x64, then make a multiboot USB with YUMI to fit both on the same drive allowing both to be used for installation and troubleshooting, while being also bundled together with other useful tools like DBAN, Memtest, Offline NT password and registry editor, and a Linux Puppy just in case.

WIM AIO Creator does allow you to add the Windows 7 x64 recovery files for those computers on x64 machines, I've also managed to merge both x64 and x86 machines relatively fine into an ISO but I always install using USB anyway.

I think you are overreacting a bit. I said I wasn't sure, and this detail isn't stated anywhere in the guides so I had no way to know. I'd like to hear Legolash2o on this too though, no offence.

Anyway, good to know. This program is beyond awesome then. Every other tool I looked at was like I said.

Something like that is useful for technicians and sysadmins, since with a single USB device (actually a couple dozen if you are into serious businness) you can fix from netbooks to desktops way faster than with a DVD.

But seriously, a program like this is bound to attract people that find fun doing insane things for the sake of saying BWHAHAHAHA I HAVE ALL WIN7 and WIN8 ON THIS USB DRIVE, LIMITLESS POWAAAAAA!!!! :dancing: :dancing:

Win 7 is a much different beast than its predecessors.

From my experience, Starter is utter trash, it isn't lighter at all and has plenty of machine-crippling features for the sake of punishing you.

I have not detected any differences in performance between the others.

To make a quick example, all netbooks I had in my hands (stuff with dual-core atom processors) could run Ultimate without any impact on performance.

This machine (the pentium D) runs Ultimate atm and it's faster than it ever was on Xp.

They say it's because they implemented some way to keep all functions ready for launch without gobbling up a ton of resources like it was with Vista and XP.

I know what you mean about having everything on one single disk, it does make life a lot easier but if you have an INSANE amount of editions on one disk then most people remove things to save space which is when things can get a bit more complicated.

I have never installed Start or Home Basic so I don't usually include them in an AIO.

Yes Vista took a lot of resources but by SP2 it became relatively stable (for me anyway), then again I still wouldn't touch Vista with a barge pole. Same with XP but that's because it's old and out-dated.

And such a person would be much better served by learning to do all this themselves. How much have you supported Win toolkit? How much potential money does it save you in man hours and overall productivity? Seriously does taking GIANT shortcuts make you a better technician? Do you really want to loose your job and potentially any future ones by using an app that you cannot support or explain what\how it did its thing? Especially if you\win toolkit make a serious error and people die over it? (Came close to happening with nLite when a hospital tech used it and several PC's failed at a hospital.)

It does save a lot of time and it's perfectly save to just integrate updates and drivers as it uses Microsoft DISM application to integrate them, however removing components/features for use in something like a hospital is a big NO.

Tell me more about this hospital thing.

Lego = Once again I urge you to add a no corp or business clause to your app. You need to protect yourself from these people and their follies.

What shall I specifically add, something like "I do not take responsibility for any errors or problems which occur if you have used this program"?

i.e. Light a man a fire and keep him warm for the night.

Light a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life...

I helped Lego add this to the toolkit.

WTF Starter? I never said stater.

http://www.sevenforu...7-editions.html

There are some features that are enabled in the higher versions you cannot avoid.

Areo shake, aero peek, dynamic disks, iis web server, offline files.

Please do much more research before spouting off.

I have been in the OS\Modification and imrovemnet buisness for over a decade. I made the first 3rd party addon for win xp (RyanVM was before me.). I really know what I am talking about.

Give a man a fish and he shall eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. Although I prefer yours. Indeed I remember you providing me with the details to add x64 recovery mode into the AIO disk, thank you.

What kind of reasoning is that? :g: If you need to write a document do you code your own Word-like application or download LibreOffice?

For the same reason no sane guy is going to waste weeks in learning how to do it from scratch, then writing scripts and debugging the damn things in his spare time when there is a program that is so much better than a makeshift bunch of scripts and is done by people that have years of experience in doing this kinds of things.

I have yet to see if it does what I need. Then we can talk of sharing loot.

Prefer OpenOffice (free), then again I haven't used LibreOffice to really compare.

Agreed, when I had to install a computer for a friend, he was very impatient and I had to leave the computer half finished because he wanted to play his shooting games. having nLite/vLite to integrate all the updates and drivers was a complete godsend, HOWEVER when it came to removing components I was VERY careful and only remove the things he would never use.

If you're an IT guy wanting to re-install many machines then it's smart, more efficient and time saving to already have all of the updates + drivers installed. Personally I don't integrate drivers and just leave a Drivers folder in the USB root to make the WIM smaller and so computers don't get bloated with drivers needed for other computers.

Smaller companies I usually work for don't have the bandwith needed to run even 5 machines downloading tons of updates at once while doing their jobs as well (as is the case for XP), and they don't allow me to do stuff at night.

The same for people that ask me to fix their own computers, I don't have a murderously fast connection and there are times when I have 5 machines that need a new OS. The faster I do it, the happier they are.

That is what Windows Server Updating Service (WSUS), this will download the updates on one machine and then distribute them to the other internal machines, saving bandwidth considerably.

Again, yeah the faster it's done the better.

You're not writing a document you are repairing\reinstalling something that people count on and spend money on. The ONLY way to guarantee you work is to do it your self.

Do you have ANY clue how win toolkit does everything it does and ALL of the ramifications of your choices?

Also when YOU modify and then INSTALL windows on ANY PC but your own you are breaking MS's Eula and opening your customers up to lawsuits and criminal charges.

You seem to me a very lazy, disrespectful person...

hmmm

A hint and a little help next time on that one:

http://www.zhangduo.com/udi.html

http://www.ryanvm.ne...opic.php?t=9769

I do feel SOME of your pain BUT I take alot of pride in my work. (I do easily 10-20 pc's weekly and build from scratch 25% or so of those.)

Sometimes it is easier to use something else, although I do agree with you to some extend. If a IT guy wants to install Windows with the latest Updates then yeah Win Toolkit will get the job done and I think it's fine to start using those disks to install 'clients' computers, but I highly do NOT recommend an IT guy removing crap they don't understand and then installing that into every clients machine. So integrating updates > good, smart, efficient. Other modifications = bad.

For example when integrating updates, Win Toolkit does:

foreach (ListViewItem LVI in lstUpdates.Items)

{

Dism.exe /Image:[imagePath] /Add-package /PackagePath:[Filename]

}

There's more code to it than that i.e. progress bar, etc..

I don't really class it as lazy, it's a very efficient way of doing your job but again if you're an IT guy installing it on machines then I would just recommend using Win Toolkit for the update integration and not to remove features/files from the image.

[someone_else]

Do you really want to loose your job and potentially any future ones by using an app that you cannot support or explain what\how it did its thing?

Yeah, because I can always totally explain how every OS and software I install works down to the slightiest detail. They are all closed boxes and this one makes no difference.

Especially if you\win toolkit make a serious error and people die over it?

I work on servers, workstations, manager's laptops, and all kinds of private-owned computers. I have absolutely no idea on how any of the machines I work with could seriously harm anyone. Other than blowing up for no reason anyway.

For your education, all critical machinery I've seen runs on either its proprietary firmware (all hospital stuff for example) or on code written by the technicians setting it up (most industrial automation), not on Windows. Neither is stuff I touch (I have no qualifications to do so).

Heck, Windows had so friggin buggy and unstable OS in the last decade that anyone running serious machinery from a PC (not just using a PC as an interface like for CAT imaging) deserves to be shot on sight.

Also when YOU modify and then INSTALL windows on ANY PC but your own you are breaking MS's Eula and opening your customers up to lawsuits and criminal charges.

Hahahah, yeah right. I'm not in the US, here even medium-sized companies get away with so goofy illegal things you have no idea.

I did refuse quite a few contracts when I discovered that they had clearly pirated all their Win7 pro and Office (dozens of machines), a couple servers, and all the friggin expensive CAD or 3D softwares they used for their job.

The college I went at had 100+ computers, C++ compilers, office suites, and whatever else 100% pirated. And of course it still does.

I'm more honest than that. I install only stuff they have valid keys and licences for. I'm technically just reinstalling and reactivating the same product. Even if it hurts my businness.

A hint and a little help next time on that one:

http://www.zhangduo.com/udi.html

http://www.ryanvm.ne...pic.php?t=9769�

The first program just tells me what is the unknown device. And i have already tools for that, that work even if the OS is dead.

The latter just makes a backup of drivers. Since the OS of those machines was completely shredded when they landed on my table, it would have been useless.

Also, you annoy me about using Win Toolkit being a so horrible risk and then admit to freely use other tools that are closed boxes just like it is. Where is the difference?

Edited July 30, 2012 by someone_else

[someone_else]

WIM AIO Creator does allow you to add the Windows 7 x64 recovery files for those computers on x64 machines, I've also managed to merge both x64 and x86 machines relatively fine into an ISO but I always install using USB anyway.

This is a very looked-after feature as I said, I'd suggest to say this aloud (i.e. add this feature to documentation) if you want to attract more attention.

I stopped using DVDs for installation the moment I managed to fit a XP on a USB drive. I don't plan to use DVD again unless in emergencies.

I have never installed Start or Home Basic so I don't usually include them in an AIO.

Since I can only legally install the Windows 7 kind they have (or can afford) the licence for, and I had quite a bit of netbooks and assembled tons of cheap desktops, I need an AIO with Starter and Home Basic as well.

I was pirating everything I would have just needed Ultimate x86 and x64 wth updates and there are plenty of those already avaliable pre-pirated from torrent, I wouldn't come here asking for a AIO with all kinds and all architectures.

Same with XP but that's because it's old and out-dated.

XP isn't outdated, they still roll out patches and is ufficially supported. But from my point of view it's a licencing issue. Companies I work with bought licences for 20 or even 100 XP machines, and don't see the reason to cough up the money to upgrade to Win 7 for computers whose job is little more than using Office suite or a couple CAD/CAM/CGI softwares that run well on XP already.

What shall I specifically add, something like "I do not take responsibility for any errors or problems which occur if you have used this program"?

In case you want to take inspiration from professionals, Windows 7 legal documentation states:

25. LIMITATION ON AND EXCLUSION OF DAMAGES.

Except for any refund the manufacturer or installer may provide, you cannot recover any other damages, including consequential, lost profits, special, indirect or incidental damages.

This limitation applies to:

· anything related to the software, services, content (including code) on third party Internet sites,

or third party programs; and

· claims for breach of contract, breach of warranty, guarantee or condition, strict liability,

negligence, or other tort to the extent permitted by applicable law.

It also applies even if

· repair, replacement or a refund for the software does not fully compensate you for any losses; or

· Microsoft knew or should have known about the possibility of the damages.

Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the

above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you. They also may not apply to you because your

country may not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental, consequential or other damages.

It does save a lot of time and it's perfectly save to just integrate updates and drivers as it uses Microsoft DISM application to integrate them, however removing components/features for use in something like a hospital is a big NO.

Ah, so this is the thing your friend was crying over. It's something so stupid to do that I find it a bit insulting assume that I do it just because I said I wanted to make a AIO ISO to place on a USB drive.

Hello? I'm a professional with a little less than a decade of experience. I did hack things for the odd gamer asking specifically for that, and even then I did say it was very risky. Windows stuff is touchy already as-is, I'm not going to hack anything for the sake of saving space on my installation medium (I use USB drives for a reason after all).

That is what Windows Server Updating Service (WSUS)

I had issues with this thing in the past. It also requires more babysitting.

Prefer OpenOffice (free), then again I haven't used LibreOffice to really compare.

Libreoffice is basically a continuation of OpenOffice, developed by the majority of OpenOffice devs that left Open Office when the owner donated the project to Apache (that put licencing issues on stuff).

Personally I don't integrate drivers and just leave a Drivers folder in the USB root to make the WIM smaller and so computers don't get bloated with drivers needed for other computers.

Can you tell me more about that? If you are talkative enough I'll add it to the guide as well. Edited July 30, 2012 by someone_else

[Kelsenellenelvian]

Lego = The hospital thing was not with the monitor and such it was with the receptionist\nurses stations. The it guy had used nLite and somehow several of the systems went down and the couldn't access med lists and such. (allergies things like that) Luckily hospital also keep all of that on paper right handy...

[Legolash2o]

Can you tell me more about that? If you are talkative enough I'll add it to the guide as well.

Basically i just have a folder on the USB root with the drivers on (copy & paste), then use device manager to install them manually after install. If you integrate 100s of drivers into an image then:

A. That will take a lot more time

B. Take up a lot of space (bigger WIM, longer install, bigger ISO)

C. more importantly computers will have drivers installed which are for other computers and will never get used.

I have a directory in the USB root called 'Drivers' and then within that i have folders called LiamsDrivers, MumsDrivers, JimBob Drivers, ChuckNorris Drivers, etc...

[someone_else]

Basically i just have a folder on the USB root with the drivers on (copy & paste), then use device manager to install them manually after install.

I hoped for a more automated operation. With the average company machine with win Xp I use this thing (integrated in the USB installer I install XP with) that detects hardware and installs only the needed drivers from driverpack.

I guess I will have to turn the thing into an addon for Win Toolkit. :g: And see if it runs reliably for Win 7 since I never tested it on Win 7.

[bphlpt]

The SAD2 script should work reliably in Win7 - at least it is supposed to.

Cheers and Regards

[compstuff]

I use it all the time in WIN 7x64

The SAD2 script should work reliably in Win7 - at least it is supposed to.

Cheers and Regards